woensdag 15 april 2009

Georgia&Democracy; a discussion

Sort of discussion with my friend Nino on democracy, georgia and the protest. It sure is a way more complicated issue then assumed by western media.

Nino
Dear Inge, please, don't disappoint me, don't tell me that you like Misha

Inge
i am happy not to dissappoint you, I do not like misha :). I'm just afraid that the strategy of the opposition does not work. since 1. I have the feeling they only want misha out, but don't have political programs to make a change, 2. are too devided and 3. do not have one leader, furhtermore 4. blocking roads everywhere does not build sympathy with the ones not already joining your protest and 5. i'm afraid changing leaders in a democratic country only by revolutions/protest does no good. oh and 6. the one political party with a political program (the republicans) do not have a seat in the parliament, so i'm just wondering how this all will develop in a somewhat democratic way which will benefit the georgians the most....

Nino
Oh, I am relieved that you don't like Misha :)).I fully agree with you about opposition being weak, poorly organised and not prepared well but Misha is simply distroying my country - He is killing all sectors on which country should be based - economy, energy, health, education, agriculture, environment. He is killing independent court and independent media. He is killing civil society, he is killing science, art, sport... And finally, he is losing territories. What can be worse than all abovementioned???You say that "changing leaders in a democratic country only by revolutions/protest is not good". I agree with you but cheating in the elections in democratic countries is also not good. And who has said that opposition is going to have a revolution? As far as I know opposition only wants to have an out of turn presidential ellections.

Inge
:)good points; especially those on his economical en environmental policies. Could not agree more with you on that! Though I still would like to stress that, altough I do believe some fraud has been conducted in the presidential elections, I was observer in Zugdidi with the parliamentary elections, and yeah, that didn't go smoothly, but fraud would be a big word (I mean, the chair of the poling station I was at, did try to pull it of, the fraud I mean, but fortunately the local obervers were very fierce and saw every, clumsy, attempt on time - which was sort of the overall conclusion of all observers in that region: clumsy onorganised fraud). But ofcourse I was not at the central counting in tbilisi, so that could have been extremely frauduleus. If so, then I think it will be best to have re-elections either. (leaving OSCE reports besides)On the other hand I think, eventhough I am not a fan of Misha's (corrupt) policies, we should not underestimate the fan's he still has...

Nino
Mostly he cheated at the presidential ellections. I can give you few examples. I. First of all I can tell you that whole governmental sector (including MoE) was involved in the pre-ellection company which is severe violation of the georgian legislatoin.II. In Marneuli and other remoted districts the results of participation was 100% . Everyone knows that in those regions lots of people work in Armenia or Azerbaijan. And even in theory it is not possible for 100% to participate.III. There was enormpus pressure on the people. In my neighborhood (saburtalo) national party representatives were threatenning people "If you don't vote for Misha, we will spoil your business etc" or "If you vote for Misha, we will release your prisoners...". And still, Misha lost in Tbilisi, Kutaisi, Batumi and many other cities.It's awkard to talk about Misha's funs. Most of them simply have their own interests...

Nino
Dear Inge, few years ago I was standing in Rustaveli actively participating in the "Rose Revolution" hoping that we would create the real democratic country with strong civil society, independent Court, independent media and strategicly thinking and motivated government but unfortunatelly I was deeply wrong..... :(((Sorry and thanks for your sympathy and love for Georgia... <

Inge
that is ugly indeed, I read some reports of the Human Rights ngo I was an intern, so I already heard some violations during presidential elections
guess you're no longer working for the gov then, huh?
To be honest, do you really believe/hope the opposition will be better then misha? For sure I think he is corrupt and should go, but who of the opposition is fit for the job? The only sane english seaking person i met was usupashvili and i'm afraid he wont get any votes.As for Burjanadze, she's known to come from a corrupt family and although i did like her when she was speaker of parliament (the way she treated nov 7, very calm and reasonable) i am not sure how she will handle the pressure.And about alasania, he just seems to me like a populist, like misha used to be, how can there be change? It is so sad, you know how much i care about georgia and want it to have a democracy, truly working. Just wonder when and how. (with the western media being pro-misha etc)

Nino
I am still working for the government and I know very well the problems existing there. I also know the lack of the desire for solving them.Yes I know how you care for georgia and I appreciate that a lot...:))

Inge
wow! That is remarkable i think, but very good! Are there more people like you? Hope there are! :)

3 opmerkingen:

Unknown zei

A little reply from me SebZar from twitter. As Nino implies here. Georgia is a beautiful and great country though things are not always as the western world thinks they are. Especially Saakashvili was very good at showing a mask to both EU and NATO. Under that mask, the Georgian government is maybe worse then Putin. Where Russia fails in hiding things for international law (simply because they don't care), Georgia has become a star in it by performing a theatre act in front of the west.

What the western-world forgets is that Russia and the former soviets states can't be compared with western-european values. It is a different world there, different morals, different values. You see that when there are elections. Being threatened to vote for someone is part of the elections. It is business as usual for political parties. And such traditional behavior is unfortunately part of the 'democratic' live there.

What the International Community should do is to look at how the people are living in Caucasus. Especially how South Ossetian, Georgianand Abkhaz people have been living the past decades.
As you know I have both family in Georgia and South Ossetia. It is not a problem for them live together, as there are many families including mine that are an Ossetian Georgian mix.

It is the government that is the problem here. And if you know how elections go over there you know that it can be very difficult to change a government. If Georgia had been lucky it would have gotten a government that is less nationalistic, with more focus on the integration of minorities. Unfortunately the focus has been the other way around. There are old wounds that never grown. There is not trust anymore between cultures.

In such cases international law-thinking is all pretty nice, but it doesn't help change the situation for the people in Georgia to something more stable and economically better.

You twittered to me about Georgia trying to get closer to the Ossetian people. I know about that, and though it looks very nice towards the western-world in practice it meant something completely different. The idea behind that action was to make the Ossetians leave their homes and land they have lived for generations. (There is more to the story then only this).

If you don't look at intenational law and more towards the human aspect you see that both Abkhaz, Ossetian and Georgian people are suffering because of the situation the government had created. Saakashvili made it even worse by falling into the trap Russia had set out for him. And helped by his own government that only consist of people that agree with him. He began a third attack on South Ossetia. With the end result making it even worse for Georgia then it was before. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are now further apart from Georgia as they have ever been after Stalin putting both under Georgian rule. And the idea for South Ossetia and Abkhazia to become part of Georgia in a peaceful way is now wiped from the table.

The winners in this situation? Russia. And lets hope in the end South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The losers are the International Community for having blindfolds on when governments get elected in Georgia. Georgia could be a fantastic deomocratic country, and example of national pride combined with tolerance for the cultures living within its borders. Unfortunately Georgia was never ready for a true democracy and pride and nationalistic thoughts, came in the way of the governments that got 'elected'. Saakashvili is an example on how to ruin ones own country. Him starting the attack on South Ossetia should have been his final mistake, but as we see now. It is a different world over there. Behind the democratic mask lie old habits and customs.

I wonder what would have happened in The Netherlands if the Dutch Government treated Friesland the way the Georgian government has been treating South Ossetia. Would Friesland become friends with Germany and arrange for German passports and an annexation?

WilkersonMclaser zei

Oh my, where to begin?

I understand Nino's passion and even her frustration as I have known people who have been run over roughshod by the government. There are many things to dislike about Misha's government, but this implication that somehow Saakashvili has single handedly destroyed the cultural beauty and economy of Georgia is a bit absurd. I don't think I need to remind anyone about the stratospheric growth rates Georgia enjoyed pre-War, or the fact that the economic crisis has hit Georgia a lot less severely than it has many other countries in the world. While Saakashvili does not deserve sole credit for this, he certainly has accomplished something here that is historically unprecedented in the modern history of an independent Georgia. I don't even know how to respond to Nino's awkward charge that Misha has managed to destroy the arts, the sciences, sports and the economy. As for the South Ossetia question - while blaming the war on Misha might be politically convenient, it's also pulled from the same propaganda sheet that's being run on the pages of Pravda. Details are emerging that Russia planned this war as much as 2.5 yrs before it happened.

And look, I know that Misha has problems, but its a singularly amazing thing to try and tag every single problem to him. He's done some unfortunate things, and his government's manipulation in the elections is certainly terrible, although never have there been reported Shevardnadze-levels of manipulation nor such problems that might alter an electoral result. Does this mean that all is fine? Of course not, but this imaginary fantasyland inhabited by Burjanadze, Gachechiladze, etc where the majority of the population secretly agrees with them is crazy. This is a common democratic phenomenon - the intelligentsia (most of whom support the opposition) surround themselves with only other like-minded and eventually can't believe that anyone could ever possibly consider voting for Misha. The exact same thing happened with George W Bush in 2004. Misha is not perfect, but his popularity among ordinary people, especially in the regions, is very real.

And make no mistake, Georgia is not Russia. Georgia's problems are many, and it's government has some severe flaws, but the array of civil rights in Georgia compared to that in Russia is striking. It does no one any good assuming corruption has been expunged, but it pains me to think of any modern democracy without some serious instances of corruption. Before we start doing the tired old "Europe" vs "East" screed - I think that argument has lost a lot of credibility in light of the political situation in the UK. And let's not forget just how famous some 'European' democracies are for their levels of corruption and cronyism. While Georgia may be worse than, say, Italy, I would hardly hold up Italy or Spain or Portugal as models of electoral democracy and civil rights.

Georgia's experiment in democracy is extremely young, and we cannot assume that Georgia will turn into Switzerland overnight. These other countries have had hundreds of years of political evolution (and revolutions) to tee them up for electoral democracy, and still they haven't all gotten it right. To be appalled that Georgia's government after 18 years (or 6, depending on your measure) isn't perfect is a bit strange and unfair.

WilkersonMclaser zei

Somehow, however, some modicum of real multiparty democracy has taken root in Georgia. It has ways to go, and the opposition could really use a class in political science 101, but it's political culture is clearly thriving and diverse. There is much to be desired from many political programs and platforms, but as the political structures mature, so will the politicians (one hopes).

Sabastiaan - I think you are conflating policies towards the Russian power sphere with policies towards ethnic minorities. As you probably know, Georgia is an inherently multiethnic country - the media's simplistic breakdown into 3 groups (Abkhaz, Ossetian, Georgian) is ridiculous when one considers just what goes into that 'Georgian' stew. Having worked and lived in Samtskhe-Javakheti, one quickly realizes that beyond the standard sub-cultures (Svan, Laz, Mingrelians, Adjaran), you also have a wide assortment of Ossetians (more Ossetians in Georgia than S Ossetia), Azeris, Armenians and Turkic peoples. While many of them live in ethnic enclaves, many people in the regions have blood from one of these groups.

The prevailing Georgian policy towards South Ossetia and Abkhazia was based not on blood, as might have been the case in the early 90s, but on the role of the Russian Federation as patron of autocratic, illegitimate regimes. Whatever one's problems with Misha, his government makes Georgia look like Canada when compared to that of Bagpsh and Kokoity (and for that matter, Putin).

The current political arrangement of South Ossetian and Abkhazian "independence" actually more closely resembles the relationship between Chechnya's Ramzan Kadyrov to Moscow than that of, say, the US to Georgia, or even Turkey to Azerbaijan. That being the case, and that having been the goal, it's not hard to realize that this is a Russian project aimed to keep Georgia weak. To assume that it was Misha's fault that relations are so poor with Russia is a stunning act of faith in Moscow's version of events.

You can stand on your Western pedestal and lecture the Georgian people all you would like (yet curiously give Russia a pass) about Georgians being 'ready' for democracy, but it's a slur against the Georgian people and woefully ignorant of the West's own development. You are terribly inflating our differences while minimizing the role of time and circumstance in the development of Western institutions - many of which still function poorly. Belgium may be a modern democracy, but it does have strong and active independence movements. No war, but Belgium is in the EU and, perhaps more importantly, the Netherlands isn't arming or radicalizing and destabilizing Flanders to provoke secession.
... cont'd

Bashing the government, while maybe emotionally satisfying, is just another route of escapism. It's easier to blame the government for Georgia's universe of ills than to face facts that may not correspond to one's worldview. Sometimes, as any psychologist knows, it's easier to blame the victim than to face difficult realities.